7th Station ~TV, movies, games~

[esm]

^ I didn't like the series that much, although I've never read the books and they probably make more sense than the movies (I mean, that's how these things go, right?). A movie like that isn't the typical Swedish film at all, so it's not even good for a Swedish film or anything. The typical Swedish film would be considered slow by most movie watchers in the US, and The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo probably was popular here because it was sort of like it could be an American film because there was enough action and suspense. The series was supposed to be a commentary on Swedish society, presenting the ugly side of human nature in a society that seems so equal and liberal, which is an aspect of the Nordic noir genre that probably doesn't carry over abroad that much and people just like the thriller/suspense or something.

[Celedam]

The series was supposed to be a commentary on Swedish society, presenting the ugly side of human nature in a society that seems so equal and liberal

I can believe that was the intent, but then I have to wonder how isolated and deluded are the Swedish people that they are so easily... Shocked? Impressed? Moved? The series was not created in a vacuum, because the tropes were so trope-y, so do they watch American mystery/thrillers and think those show exclusively American problems?

[esm]

I mean, I don't know too much about Sweden, but my Swedish teacher told me that it seems like a place with less crime and violence overall, so when something happens there it impacts people a lot more. Like they'd like to think that Sweden is a peaceful place where these violent crimes don't happen (at least not regularly). Minnesota has the same mentality. People know these things happen, but they don't expect it in their own peaceful little place.

These Scandinavian crime series are probably popular because people know it's true that there are lots of problems in their society, including how they don't integrate immigrants into their society, even though at the same time there is so much hype about how Scandinavia is doing so much more right compared to the rest of the developed world & is generous to immigrants, etc. Again, Minnesota is very similar -- one of the best US states for education and quality of life but one of the worst for racial inequality.

[Celedam]

People were trashing the previous trailers for Captain Marvel, saying that Brie Larson is wooden and boring. So, Marvel released a new trailer today…



Better. And yes, that is a young Agent Coulson at 0:58.

By the way, called it…

viewtopic.php?p=232255#p232255

[Zunu]

^^ I read a couple of Stieg Larsson's Millennium (aka "Dragon Tattoo") books as well as watching the movies (not the latest). My impression wasn't so much that Swedes were naively deluded by the hokey plot developments in the novels. I think it was more just a simple matter of their being specially fun and interesting on account of being "home-grown," i.e. here's a good ripping crime thriller that takes place in OUR country for a change, instead of taking place halfway across the world. which meant there were cultural, social and geographic elements that resonated particularly with the Swedish reader. At least, from an American perspective the pacing, dialogue, scenery etc., had an exotic and unusual feel to it. But also, was it really such a trope-y trope back then? The young pansexual scruffy bohemian female hacker seems like a hackneyed concept, but even now Lisbeth is one of only two examples of that on TV Tropes in the literature section of "Hackette" (and these were massively popular books before they became middling films). Also remember the first Tattoo novel came out in 2005, right on the heels of John Ajvide Lindqvist's 2004 "Let The Right One In," another international hit -- adapted in English as "Let Me In," which later became a film starring Chloe Grace Moretz as a vampire girl. It can't be a coincidence that Sweden was obsessing over dangerously OP young women around that time. I've never been there, but on paper Sweden is known as one of the top nations in the world in terms of gender equality, and I suspect unpacking these novels and others like them would speak to evolving social attitudes in the matter.

[esm]

It’s definitely not new to Sweden back then. I mean, one of the most popular and influential character in Swedish culture is Pippi Longstocking, who’s basically a strong girl who lives without an adult. Actually, I read that Lisbeth Salander was supposed to be like a grown version of Pippi.

[Celedam]

I think it was more just a simple matter of their being specially fun and interesting on account of being "home-grown," i.e. here's a good ripping crime thriller that takes place in OUR country for a change, instead of taking place halfway across the world. which meant there were cultural, social and geographic elements that resonated particularly with the Swedish reader. At least, from an American perspective the pacing, dialogue, scenery etc., had an exotic and unusual feel to it.

So, like I asked at the beginning, those novels/films are popular simply because they're Swedish?

But also, was it really such a trope-y trope back then? The young pansexual scruffy bohemian female hacker seems like a hackneyed concept, but even now Lisbeth is one of only two examples of that on TV Tropes in the literature section of "Hackette" (and these were massively popular books before they became middling films). Also remember the first Tattoo novel came out in 2005, right on the heels of John Ajvide Lindqvist's 2004 "Let The Right One In," another international hit -- adapted in English as "Let Me In," which later became a film starring Chloe Grace Moretz as a vampire girl. It can't be a coincidence that Sweden was obsessing over dangerously OP young women around that time. I've never been there, but on paper Sweden is known as one of the top nations in the world in terms of gender equality, and I suspect unpacking these novels and others like them would speak to evolving social attitudes in the matter.

That particular trope — the strong, unconventional woman — is not what I was thinking of, and frankly I'm a little annoyed that you assumed it is.

The sort of tropes I was thinking of are (spoilered in case anyone is still interested in watching the movies or reading the novels)…

Spoiler: show

- Affable but ultimately incompetent law enforcement;
- Struggling, independent journalists "speaking truth to power";
- Basic networking tools and online research techniques portrayed as "hacking";
- Dozens of abductions and murders going back decades, but somehow no one ever noticed the pattern before;
- Older men abusing and murdering younger women for sadistic pleasure;
- Alphanumeric codes that were assumed to be one thing but turned out to be something else;
- Biblical references just for thrills, without any real explanation or meaning;
- Gratuitous anti-capitalist and anti-rich attitudes (and no, it's not just because it's Sweden);
- Actual Jew-hating Nazis, because being rich, sadistic, and sociopathic isn't quite evil enough <eyeroll>; and
- The male and female leads end up having sex simply because they spend a lot of time together in a stressful situation, not because they genuinely care about each other. I understand why each of them did it — Mikael was a pretty casual womanizer who was already involved with one (the publisher) and flirting with another (the cousin), and Lisbeth didn't know how to have a healthy, platonic relationship with any man — but they still did it.

Y'know, mystery/thriller tropes. Like I said at the beginning.

[Zunu]

So, like I asked at the beginning, those novels/films are popular simply because they're Swedish?

What I'm saying is that to a large extent it's because they are Swedish but because in addition to that they were indisputably well-written thrillers and were at the vanguard of a rising popularity in the Swedish Mystery/thriller department. They were immensely popular books just not at home but throughout the world. Wikipedia points out that the first 3 books sold 80 million copies worldwide, which is a smash by any means, but especially considering that Sweden itself only has about 10 million inhabitants, even the Swede-American diaspora isn't accounting for those sales alone. I mean, it's like the popularity of anime worldwide. Is it just because it's Japanese? Obviously not but the Japanese-ness of it plays a strong part as to why it's popular. Quality aside it also has a delicious flavor that you're not going to get in the local variety of cartoon animation; there's synergy. Anyway, with respect to the films themselves I agree that they weren't as strong as the novels and didn't stick with me as well. The English language remake was particularly pointless.

That particular trope — the strong, unconventional woman — is not what I was thinking of, and frankly I'm a little annoyed that you assumed it is.

Hmm, yeah I guess you didn't specify, so I apologize for just jumping 0-60 to that idea -- I guess that's what stood out as "could be considered possibly tropey" for me. (You edited your comment after I started writing this so thank you for the additional info. I think people don't necessarily mind tropes -- some people are looking for tropes to be "subverted" but other people just want their execution to be satisfying, whatever that means to them. Genre books in general tend to rely on standard tropes being resolved in a satisfying fashion. I do agree with you in terms of the movies that that was lacking on some level. )

Actually, I read that Lisbeth Salander was supposed to be like a grown version of Pippi.

That's interesting. It's been a very long time since I read Pippi Longstocking but my dim recollection of her is as a kind of version of the Loki/Eleggua/Puck etc trickster god character, I guess fitting into what people call "chaotic neutral." Don't know if that's even accurate tho.

[Celedam]

I think people don't necessarily mind tropes -- some people are looking for tropes to be "subverted" but other people just want their execution to be satisfying, whatever that means to them. Genre books in general tend to rely on standard tropes being resolved in a satisfying fashion. I do agree with you in terms of the movies that that was lacking on some level.

I think that's the fairest conclusion we can come to. Put me in the "just want their execution to be satisfying" column.

[esm]

Actually, I read that Lisbeth Salander was supposed to be like a grown version of Pippi.

That's interesting. It's been a very long time since I read Pippi Longstocking but my dim recollection of her is as a kind of version of the Loki/Eleggua/Puck etc trickster god character, I guess fitting into what people call "chaotic neutral." Don't know if that's even accurate tho.

She's definitely a trickster but is also particularly anti-authoritarian and would make fun of unreasonable adults.