The Morality of Idolatry

[Starra]

Well, yeah, but weren't those responses from 2ch? On Twitter they seem to be nicer.

[AyuHikaru]

Regardless of where it was posted, it was just them prepetuating the stereotype and making Foreign fans who read it (since some guy translated it for foriegn fans) continue believing all wota are gross.

[Starra]

I just don't like it when people assume that . It seems rude to me.


Like I said I do realise there are lots of creepy wota, but not all of them are.

[AyuHikaru]

Of course, painting a broad brush an ANY subset of people is wrong.

[Starra]

That's my point, really.

I'm not trying to accuse you of doing it btw, I just mean in general it's not really a good thing to do.

[Zunu]

It's interesting to see the defensiveness of the inherently misogynist nature of 'idolatry' by throwing out the "it's a job" argument or the average age of H!P.

First of all, that's weaksauce. If you have an argument to make (and you do make a good one, although I don't entirely concur), you should rely on the strength of that argument. Casting aspersions upon the supposed motivations behind opposing positions is just a bullying tactic. "You disagree with me, therefore you must be misogynist."

At the end of the day, there's a lot that's wrong and unfair about 'idolatry'. The victims end up being the girls. Their characters might be super-human, but it's so unfair to expect young girls to sacrifice their humanity in order to appease and unforgiving fanbase. That they sign these contracts at such incredibly young ages is the real shame of it all.

This is something that I find a bit bizarre about (as it is referred to in the scholarly literature) The "BTK (Bakajo-Totally-Kita) position". It plays havoc with concept of capacity. On the one hand, you are saying that the girls are capable of making an informed decision to be sexually active. On the other hand, you are saying that the girls are incapable of making an informed decision to not be sexually active.

I had an idea recently and I wonder if what the crowd thinks of it:

Male followers of female idols view them as kid sisters and don't want them to date because it would mean that they would change from being their genki sisters.

Female followers of male idols view them as boyfriends and want them to date to show that they are interested in females.

Frankly I find the whole "fan" argument to be b.s.

Hey Apple, why do you make white earphones?
"Well, glad you ask, Zunu, it's cause our consumers have expressed a demand for our unique white designs, hope that helps!"

Well, yeah, people like the white earphones because they're iconically Apple. But they're iconically Apple because Apple made the decision to make white earphones an icon. If they had come out with purple earphones as an icon, then that would be the color in demand. Similarly, I believe that girl group fans think their idols should be virginal because that is what is being advanced by the industry as an expectation. Obviously broader society has some influence here; I do believe that in some ways "respectable" J-culture is more sexist than "respectable" Western culture, or to put it another way, that the US is probably more ready for a female president than Japan is for a female prime minister. And that this difference makes it easier for the idol industry to exercise the nakedly sexist image of the virginal idol.

But ultimately if the industry as a whole refused to push the virginal angel angle, then I believe the fans would follow along, and frankly I think fandom would be healthier as a result. (Although as I alluded to previously there could be some unintended problems as well.) As things stand now, every time an incident like Minegishi's takes place, it validates the weltanschauung of the stereotypical basement-dwelling sicko perv fanatic who does violent rape-y things to their photobooks when the girls "misbehave." This is dangerous because eventually the brand of the idol group becomes associated with that type of fan.

H!P almost imploded a few years back, not because of any competition - AKB was still nascent - but because it had allowed itself to become ruled by the what was perceived to be the whims of the most rabid wota. It played hardball with its most talented members and the result? Scandal after scandal, resignation after resignation rocked the credibility of the organization. But follow all the dots. It was a "credibility" in the first place defined by adherence to the virginal illusion.

Miki Fujimoto was a hero because she said, you know what? Fuck this, y'all are just going to have to handle the fact that I'm a sexually active woman now. And surprise the fans' didn't jump ship (more than they already had) and things eventually worked out fine. I'd have to ask Starra for sure but it seems to me that since then H!P has desisted from making girls publicly apologize in response to rumored sex scandals. I have no way of knowing, but I'm led to think that Fujimoto's mutiny was a catalyst which led to their re-examining that aspect of their public policy.

[Starra]

^I don't think there have even been any major scandals since 2007 in terms of H!P. Not that I remember, anyway.

[resop2]

Dealing with a lot of wota on Tumblr, Facebook, Forums, Twitter, I can tell you that a lot of men do not see the girls as little sisters. I will admit most of the guys in the fandom are respectful, they will say a girl is attractive or flawless or beautiful without being creepy at all. I know a Harunan wota who is 21 and talks about how she is perfect and he wants to be her boyfriend and he NEVER crosses the line into creeptastic territory. Even when speaking about the underage girls (like say Mizuki, who gets a lot of comments for her Jail Bait body) they never cross the realm into gross or disrespectful.

HOWEVER, none of them see the girls as "little sisters" and if you read 2ch, hardly any of them do either. And while I talk about the respectful men above, there are a lot of disrespectful, reprehensible males who are disgusting, pedophilic, and misogynistic toward the girls. A good English example is about 6 months or so a guy was commenting on the H!O pic board about how lickable he thought the girls were (and that was a safer comment that I remember). That "Little Sister" BS is what they say in public while fapping to a 14 year olds photobook in private.

Let's face it, most of these guys probably want these girls to be their girlfriends. It's no different than the Johnny's fandom.

I am not on 2ch and really don't want to be.

H!P almost imploded a few years back, not because of any competition - AKB was still nascent - but because it had allowed itself to become ruled by the what was perceived to be the whims of the most rabid wota. It played hardball with its most talented members and the result? Scandal after scandal, resignation after resignation rocked the credibility of the organization. But follow all the dots. It was a "credibility" in the first place defined by adherence to the virginal illusion.

Miki Fujimoto was a hero because she said, you know what? Fuck this, y'all are just going to have to handle the fact that I'm a sexually active woman now. And surprise the fans' didn't jump ship (more than they already had) and things eventually worked out fine. I'd have to ask Starra for sure but it seems to me that since then H!P has desisted from making girls publicly apologize in response to rumored sex scandals. I have no way of knowing, but I'm led to think that Fujimoto's mutiny was a catalyst which led to their re-examining that aspect of their public policy.

I came aboard the H!P ship around 2008 so I know I am missing a lot of the story here. However, I am not sure that Fujimoto was making some heroic stand as opposed to she got caught and she got kicked out. Has H!P re-examined their policy? Don't know, as Starra said in another post, I don't think there's been any scandals since then. Sounds to me like H!P told the girls: "Do what we say or get kicked to the curb. If Fujimoto Miki was not 'above the law' then you will not be either."

As for being "ruled by whims of the most rabid wota" thing, I would agree that there was more of an emphasis on sexuality in MM music around this time, but, I don't think this was caused by catering to the most rabid wota. I personally think that H!P was just trying different things to try to prop up sales, and when sexing things up didn't lead to a breakthrough in sales they moved on.

[Bakajo Nono]

It's interesting to see the defensiveness of the inherently misogynist nature of 'idolatry' by throwing out the "it's a job" argument or the average age of H!P.

First of all, that's weaksauce. If you have an argument to make (and you do make a good one, although I don't entirely concur), you should rely on the strength of that argument. Casting aspersions upon the supposed motivations behind opposing positions is just a bullying tactic. "You disagree with me, therefore you must be misogynist."

She wasn't calling anyone misogynistic; she said the industry was misogynistic and that justifying the industry's methods by calling it a job was defending a misogynistic industry.

At the end of the day, there's a lot that's wrong and unfair about 'idolatry'. The victims end up being the girls. Their characters might be super-human, but it's so unfair to expect young girls to sacrifice their humanity in order to appease and unforgiving fanbase. That they sign these contracts at such incredibly young ages is the real shame of it all.

This is something that I find a bit bizarre about (as it is referred to in the scholarly literature) The "BTK (Bakajo-Totally-Kita) position". It plays havoc with concept of capacity. On the one hand, you are saying that the girls are capable of making an informed decision to be sexually active. On the other hand, you are saying that the girls are incapable of making an informed decision to not be sexually active.

They're far too young to understand what exactly they're swearing off when they sign contracts at such a young age, and then by the time they have advanced through puberty and all the hormones have stopped wreaking havoc, they've been disciplined by the industry through years of training, education, and every other way they are so completely immersed into the industry to view sex in a slut-shaming light. I'm not saying they do, in the end, view it that way, but it inevitably shapes the psyche over such extended periods of time--and especially with such deep immersion and intensity. That's how schools work to promote nationalism, hierarchy, etc.

Not to mention, again, the paradox they face when they sing songs about romantic life, act in sexualized ways, and yet are restricted from actually engaging in any of it in any way.

But ultimately if the industry as a whole refused to push the virginal angel angle, then I believe the fans would follow along, and frankly I think fandom would be healthier as a result.

I agree. I honestly don't think it would be that difficult a transition regardless of how different "Western" and "Japanese" culture may be. The two are becoming more and more integrated over time. I'm sure there would be minor backlash if the ban was lifted, but I imagine the majority of the fandom would be okay with it.

^
1) I don't claim to know what every H!P male fan is like.
2) It might be offensive to you, but I believe it to be true from conversations that I have had with people who know boy-idol fandom. (I have no first hand knowledge.)
3) First part: Probably not.
Second part: Yes, while it might not be true, for the older brother, their greatest fear is that their cute younger sister will change.

This is not a troll or a joke, but a question.

1. And yet you said in catch-all terms that male fans of female idols see it that way, but okay. Seriously, go through a quick tumblr search of Morning Musume or any other MM forum and every other comment will probably be something like wow Ai's got a nice ass or something. Obviously that's not how all male idol fans are--there are plenty of examples here on this forum of guys that aren't like that--but there are quite a few and that is NOT how an older brother speaks about his younger sister.
2. Okay, then I will tell you from my first hand knowledge that it's not fair to contrast the two in that way. And it's offensive.
3. As a younger sister, my brother in no way wants to stunt my advancement to stay cute and genki. In fact he wants me to become more serious, more prepared for the future, more of a contributor to the world who can handle serious issues and yes, have a serious relationship. From personal experience, older brother's greatest concerns are not that their little sisters will change from being cute and genki, it's probably more that they'll be taken advantage of because they are cute and genki. It's probably that they will be unprepared for the difficulties of life because they're cute and genki. They'll always see their sisters in a certain light, but there's not an innate desire to keep them infantile, I can assure you of that.

[randompasserby]

Wasn't planning on participating much on this thread but ah well, might as well throw a few cents here and there

They're far too young to understand what exactly they're swearing off when they sign contracts at such a young age, and then by the time they have advanced through puberty and all the hormones have stopped wreaking havoc, they've been disciplined by the industry through years of training, education, and every other way they are so completely immersed into the industry to view sex in a slut-shaming light. I'm not saying they do, in the end, view it that way, but it inevitably shapes the psyche over such extended periods of time--and especially with such deep immersion and intensity. That's how schools work to promote nationalism, hierarchy, etc.

Not to mention, again, the paradox they face when they sing songs about romantic life, act in sexualized ways, and yet are restricted from actually engaging in any of it in any way.

-This contract that they supposedly sign? Fan conjecture. We know nothing about the actual details of any contracts signed between the agency and the idol + their guardians. If anything any kind of punishment for "improper" behavior is more likely decided after the fact and with many considerations to the circumstances, as we can recently see from the varying punishments in the **48 family for practically identical offenses.

-How does abstaining from dating in their tweens suddenly becomes viewing sex in a slut shaming light? A lot of the people around me don't even date until after they finished high school, not because they were forbidden to but because they don't really consider dating as an obligatory life experience/rite of passage in high school as much as others think they are and as far as I know they don't have negative views on sex or relationships in general just because they never dated in their tweens. Personally I think people can have discipline enough to stay away from distractions when you're pursuing other things you consider a higher priority without warping their world view so much. Putting time restrictions in their schedules aside, athletes also stay away from binge eating fast foods, scholarship hounds doesn't have time for silly video games/cartoons, musicians/artists/performers and I'm sure many others types of people besides idols makes all kinds of little sacrifices along the way.

-I don't think personally experiencing the things they sing about was ever a requirement for any artists/musicians, especially those that don't even write their own music. It certainly adds some value but I can't see how it's a paradox.