6th Station ~Other Bands for H!P Fans~

[forgetmenots]

"Is a society's innate racism or ignorance cause to persecute those who are educated by it?"

That's a question that from living in America and from moving to a culture that's very... subtle and ignorant in a lot of their racism and prejudices (other than some really obvious examples like the political group that gathers quite often in Osaka and loudly proclaims on loudspeakers how dirty Koreans should be expelled from Japan) that I've had to think on a lot.

While I do not blame MomoClo for this. I can't help but worry about the way the show has portrayed black face to the common Japanese person. Of course, America never really feels the need to address black face in any kind of way to a international or even national front. America prefers to pretend it never happened and then panic when they see someone else repeating their own mistakes. So yes, to Japan I'm sure it's no different than the products they use to LIGHTEN their faces. Changing skin color appearance for them has no extra baggage. They should however recognize the international backlash they are receiving for this, take note, and apologize.

[Daisuki Daiiyo]

Momoiro Clover Z does blackface
http://aramajapan.com/news/tvmovie/musi ... e-2/16503/
.
.
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Well, that's a headline I never expected to read...

I just... Damn. [insert Tyra's "we were all rooting for you!!" .gif here]

[AyuHikaru]

Blackface is also something that's offensive in America, generally. In fact the Dutch still celebrate "Zwarte Piet" in which they... cover themselves in blackface and honor their version of Santa's little helper.
In America is became taboo to ever attempt such a thing, but it's not in a lot of other countries. We Americans need to remember our rules don't exactly apply once outside our borders. It's not just ignorance of the Japanese.

Excerpt from an article:

In the U.K., however, the popular television program The Black and White Minstrel Show, which featured white performers in dark makeup, wigs, and white lips, ran on the BBC from 1958 until 1978, attracting an audience of millions of viewers. Even today, the legacies of blackface survives in countries all over the world—accompanied by varying degrees of condemnation. The comics character Memín Pinguín remains popular in Mexico, and even came out in postage stamps in 2005, despite criticism that the character is depicted using racist iconography. In the Netherlands and Belgium, where Lt. Dratwa is originally from, they celebrate the holidays with Zwarte Piet (literally “Black Pete”), once thought to be Santa’s slave, and now a dark-skinned, wigged, and big-lipped helper. In 2009, Harry Connick Jr. was stunned when, while appearing on a reunion special of an Australian variety show, he was asked to judge a blackface performance of a group calling themselves the Jackson Jive. While the judges gave the performance low scores, many in the audience cheered, and Connick asked to address the camera to explain why it was so offensive to him as an American. In Germany, performances by actors in blackface are still relatively common, though many Germans insist that these depictions are not racist but simply arise from a shortage of black actors. A billboard in Berlin that featured a comedian posing in blackface with the caption “Ick bin ein Obama” (“I am an Obama”) similarly attracted protests from black Germans, but the comedian denied that he was participating in any racist tradition. South Africa has held a minstrel festival in Cape Town since the 1860s, though these days it’s carried on as a subversive act. In Japan, a trend called ganguro (literally “black face”) caught on in the mid-1990s as a way to rebel against traditional Japanese notions of beauty, but the fashion differs widely from blackface iconography, usually featuring girls in long blond wigs.

It's ignorance of a lot of the world.

Should we decry it? YES. Should we blame 5 girls who have no idea of the social impact? NO.

You do not fight racism with "Well they did this thing now I hate them" you fight it with education. I say this as someone who was once married to a black man.

[esm]

With the success of ~retro~ sounding songs the past few months, I keep wondering if this would've been a top 10 hit had it been released within the same time frame:


Or anything else from that album, for that matter.

I love both of their albums so much.

[Daisuki Daiiyo]

Blackface is also something that's offensive in America, generally. In fact the Dutch still celebrate "Zwarte Piet" in which they... cover themselves in blackface and honor their version of Santa's little helper.
In America is became taboo to ever attempt such a thing, but it's not in a lot of other countries. We Americans need to remember our rules don't exactly apply once outside our borders. It's not just ignorance of the Japanese.

Excerpt from an article:

In the U.K., however, the popular television program The Black and White Minstrel Show, which featured white performers in dark makeup, wigs, and white lips, ran on the BBC from 1958 until 1978, attracting an audience of millions of viewers. Even today, the legacies of blackface survives in countries all over the world—accompanied by varying degrees of condemnation. The comics character Memín Pinguín remains popular in Mexico, and even came out in postage stamps in 2005, despite criticism that the character is depicted using racist iconography. In the Netherlands and Belgium, where Lt. Dratwa is originally from, they celebrate the holidays with Zwarte Piet (literally “Black Pete”), once thought to be Santa’s slave, and now a dark-skinned, wigged, and big-lipped helper. In 2009, Harry Connick Jr. was stunned when, while appearing on a reunion special of an Australian variety show, he was asked to judge a blackface performance of a group calling themselves the Jackson Jive. While the judges gave the performance low scores, many in the audience cheered, and Connick asked to address the camera to explain why it was so offensive to him as an American. In Germany, performances by actors in blackface are still relatively common, though many Germans insist that these depictions are not racist but simply arise from a shortage of black actors. A billboard in Berlin that featured a comedian posing in blackface with the caption “Ick bin ein Obama” (“I am an Obama”) similarly attracted protests from black Germans, but the comedian denied that he was participating in any racist tradition. South Africa has held a minstrel festival in Cape Town since the 1860s, though these days it’s carried on as a subversive act. In Japan, a trend called ganguro (literally “black face”) caught on in the mid-1990s as a way to rebel against traditional Japanese notions of beauty, but the fashion differs widely from blackface iconography, usually featuring girls in long blond wigs.

It's ignorance of a lot of the world.

I don't really see how it being ignorance, absolves the act from being racist? Racist shit is racist shit, no matter what. You're essentially saying that we should accept it, because the world doesn't know better? We should hold ourselves to higher standards. And if anything, that article you reference (without linking to) just goes to further show that Minstrel shit isn't just an American problem, it's very much a world problem-- the part about protests in Germany for instance. Thanks to American Imperialism importing Minstrel Shows out to the world, the fact that Minstrel Shows and their offshoots are racist is no longer just an American issue or belief. It's just that stateside we're more likely to bring it up/teach about it.

Yeah yeah, in the Netherlands they celebrated zwarte piet, but you'd better believe that the black people there and their allies weren't taking that shit lying down. It's just that black people are a small minority in the EU, along with several of the other aforementioned places, so their voices were often stamped out by idiots touting zwarte piet/other blackface caricatures/minstrel shows as harmless tradition (and lets not even get started on self-loathing blacks, colorism, and the pressure of a society that has conditioned us to accept racist stuff without much of a fuss). Every time blackface pops up world wide, the minorities affected in the respective country it happens in, do stand up against it, so it isn't just something Americans take offense to. I can think of the Australian fashion mag, which had models in blackface receiving backlash. Or (in Australia again) some girl had a blackface birthday party and put pics up on FB, and her page got lit up with people who called the act out for the racist shit it was. Also ganguro/yamamba once again, doesn't have roots in minstrel shows, the name (yamamba specifically) comes from Japanese folklore about the mountain hag, and the style is an extreme take on the SoCal valley girl who tans/bleaches her hair.

Anyhow, if we were to somehow remove historical context from the equation entirely, it's still just a really crass and poorly crafted joke. The funny aspect here is supposed to be "ha-ha they're painted black, just like black people. Look at how ridiculous they look." The whole basis of this joke is to laugh at how a black person looks. It's making a mockery of actual people/a skintone. And that alone, that my mere existence with brown skin is something to be made a joke of, is racist and hurtful as shit. And there is no way that you could possibly be ignorant of something as basic as mockery.

Should we decry it? YES. Should we blame 5 girls who have no idea of the social impact? NO.

You do not fight racism with "Well they did this thing now I hate them" you fight it with education. I say this as someone who was once married to a black man.

These two things are not mutually exclusive, seeing as to decry the racist act, we would have to hold Momoclo/their management/the show accountable because of the social implications. I don't hate them at all, I'm just disappointed and listening to Momoclo stuff without wincing now will be quite a feat.

I say this, as an actual black person.

(And I do specify African Americans because, based on those comments, South Africans don't see it offensive?)

Self-loathing is very real thing.

[Denki]

^ I would just assumed that people (who are from African decent) who don't see it offensive never got the significant meaning other countries might have, but if they did, then that would be sad.

I would still want to see staff to release a formal apology. It would probably be best to actually prevent that clip from airing, though I would somehow feel like the show won't acknowledge foreigners.

[AyuHikaru]

No one said ignorance is an EXCUSE, but it is an explanation and people going "It's not my job to educate you" are part of the problem. That article talks about how it's wrong, but still happens out of ignorance, which is exactly whats going on. The problem is a lot of the world doesn't really get why it's wrong, because the people who should be telling them it's wrong aren't doing it. Either because they don't see a need to (Old dogs can't learn new tricks) or because they don't think it's their responsibility. I'm not talking about random protesters, that isn't going to help. Teachers, politicians, media -- anyone with influence over thought. They should be teaching these people that it's wrong and they just aren't. So, no I don't blame people who live their life in ingorance without knowing the implications.

True Fax: Most people on FFXIV say "Jap" and I've had to tell them over and over again why saying "Jap" is racist, because they don't understand. When I explain they do understand and 99% of them stop saying it (As a Guild Leader I have some position of power). I don't mind explaining it over and over again because I understand they just don't know (and most of them feel like shit afterwards once I explain). It's not intentional racism, even if it's still racism. It doesn't make sense for me to start hating those people when they just don't know (and it's been a lot). Education is key.

You explain it to them, it's not their fault the TV show told them it was safe to do that. They don't know any differently. Why would they? No one explained to them the implications, they just thought what they were doing was fine - because they were TOLD it was fine.

People are blaming the wrong people here because Momoclo is popular.

[Zunu]

Anyhow, if we were to somehow remove historical context from the equation entirely, it's still just a really crass and poorly crafted joke. The funny aspect here is supposed to be "ha-ha they're painted black, just like black people. Look at how ridiculous they look." The whole basis of this joke is to laugh at how a black person looks. It's making a mockery of actual people/a skintone. And that alone, that my mere existence with brown skin is something to be made a joke of, is racist and hurtful as shit. And there is no way that you could possibly be ignorant of something as basic as mockery.

I don't personally find that at all racist, to be honest. In my opinion, racism is thinking that an aspect of a person's race renders them superior or inferior in some fashion, especially within a sociocultural environment which codifies that notion. Not the mere act of noticing and finding humor in the differences between us all, unless done in a demeaning fashion. I mean, there are fat jokes, thin jokes, short jokes, white people are pale jokes, drag humor, etc. Doing away with all humor based upon physical differences would impoverish the world, in my opinion. Hello Morning used to have a regular skit where Maki would dress up as a "white person" with a stereotypically long nose. Whiteface. Nobody raised an issue about it. Sure, I agree that in the context of racial history, blackface performed in the West is a TOTALLY different story and comes with very unpleasant undertones. But performed by Japanese people, I'm not particularly fazed by it. On the other hand, I don't think as individuals we have the right to tell others what they ought to find offensive or inoffensive, so I wouldn't discount the feelings of others who do take offense. On a related note, I went to a exhibition last year which documented a certain controversy that happened in the 1980's:

The Parsons School of Design, an affiliate of the New School for Social Research, mounted an exhibit of Japanese graphics in 1989. One of the 350 works by commercial artist Shin Matsunaga was an advertisement for a soft drink that featured a happy-go-lucky, cartoon-like Black figure with large lips, top hat and tie. The figure was the company's logo, not Mr. Matsunaga's creation. Both a dean as well as the Black Student Association felt it was racist and pressured the New School administration to either take the image down or post a disclaimer next to it. Both requests were rejected. Following these failed attempts to effect their will, the drawing was defaced by an instructor who scralled "This is racist bullshit" over the piece, and drew a large "X" across it. In addition, he signed his name to what he had done, a brazen gesture repeated later by about forty students.

Again, for me, the image reproduced in Matsunaga's work (see) would not have been offensive, just culturally interesting. I agree the school would've been wise to post a disclaimer, but I very much disagree with defacing the work, regardless of whether the instructor was justly offended or not.

Anyway, one could argue that we are doing the same thing here on this very forum. We have an "Engrish" thread where people find humor in Japanese malapropisms. There are certainly many people who find the whole concept of laughing at Bad Asian English highly offensive, for well-established historical reasons, even. Hell, some people get offended when Westerners merely "co-opt" traditional Asian clothing styles, e.g. dress in kimono or geta. One of my best friends is a Japanese-American guy who finds the entire concept of Jpop idols (this forum's raison d'être) incredibly offensive. We, uh, don't talk much about it.

[Daisuki Daiiyo]

Yikes. I have to say honestly, that I didn't make it past "whiteface."

*kanye shrug*

[Zunu]

Well it was a long post.