The Morality of Idolatry

[Bakajo Nono]

Wasn't planning on participating much on this thread but ah well, might as well throw a few cents here and there

They're far too young to understand what exactly they're swearing off when they sign contracts at such a young age, and then by the time they have advanced through puberty and all the hormones have stopped wreaking havoc, they've been disciplined by the industry through years of training, education, and every other way they are so completely immersed into the industry to view sex in a slut-shaming light. I'm not saying they do, in the end, view it that way, but it inevitably shapes the psyche over such extended periods of time--and especially with such deep immersion and intensity. That's how schools work to promote nationalism, hierarchy, etc.

Not to mention, again, the paradox they face when they sing songs about romantic life, act in sexualized ways, and yet are restricted from actually engaging in any of it in any way.

-This contract that they supposedly sign? Fan conjecture. We know nothing about the actual details of any contracts signed between the agency and the idol + their guardians. If anything any kind of punishment for "improper" behavior is more likely decided after the fact and with many considerations to the circumstances, as we can recently see from the varying punishments in the **48 family for practically identical offenses.

-How does abstaining from dating in their tweens suddenly becomes viewing sex in a slut shaming light? A lot of the people around me don't even date until after they finished high school, not because they were forbidden to but because they don't really consider dating as an obligatory life experience/rite of passage in high school as much as others think they are and as far as I know they don't have negative views on sex or relationships in general just because they never dated in their tweens. Personally I think people can have discipline enough to stay away from distractions when you're pursuing other things you consider a higher priority without warping their world view so much. Putting time restrictions in their schedules aside, athletes also stay away from binge eating fast foods, scholarship hounds doesn't have time for silly video games/cartoons, musicians/artists/performers and I'm sure many others types of people besides idols makes all kinds of little sacrifices along the way.

-I don't think personally experiencing the things they sing about was ever a requirement for any artists/musicians, especially those that don't even write their own music. It certainly adds some value but I can't see how it's a paradox.

- Okay, fan conjecture, but then why was there a scandal when Mari was dating Shun? When they asked 9th gen if they had secret boyfriends or whatever they said they didn't want to lose their job/love Morning Musume too much to risk it or whatever. If it's not in their contract, how could the industry enforce banning love or whatever?

- I didn't say abstaining from dating in their tweens was what caused viewing sex in a slut shaming light. I was more extending Kita's point about it--the fact that there are "scandals" about it is slut shaming.

- No, it's not a requirement for artist/musicians, but it's not just the music. It's the photobooks, and fanservice (although I think that word has a racier connotation idk it's late I'm tired) that is geared towards their large male audience that they perform without actually being able to engage in it--in fact being forbidden from it.

[randompasserby]

About slut shaming, idk... somehow I don't think this is it

They certainly (almost) always resigned as an Idol soon after but getting caught in a relationship never really affect their entertainment career or public image negatively afterwards much doesn't it? Yaguchi, Tsuji and Fujimoto are all doing well enough nowadays as far as I can tell and they certainly weren't ashamed of anything they did.

In their cases, I see it more like now that their personal relationships had come to light, the illusion is broken and they no longer meet what was thought as the requirements of being an idol at the time, simple as that. Some of those same idol fans still continue to support them, just not as an idol.

- Okay, fan conjecture, but then why was there a scandal when Mari was dating Shun? When they asked 9th gen if they had secret boyfriends or whatever they said they didn't want to lose their job/love Morning Musume too much to risk it or whatever. If it's not in their contract, how could the industry enforce banning love or whatever?

Prevailing public perceptions and clamor are sometimes enough.
Times are definitely changing however and it seems nowadays if you're popular enough they might still keep you around like in Minegishi's case. Her fans (the saner non rabid ones, the ones who counts) definitely never shamed or abandons her after the reveal.

[Zunu]

It's interesting to see the defensiveness of the inherently misogynist nature of 'idolatry' by throwing out the "it's a job" argument or the average age of H!P.

First of all, that's weaksauce. If you have an argument to make (and you do make a good one, although I don't entirely concur), you should rely on the strength of that argument. Casting aspersions upon the supposed motivations behind opposing positions is just a bullying tactic. "You disagree with me, therefore you must be misogynist."

She wasn't calling anyone misogynistic; she said the industry was misogynistic and that justifying the industry's methods by calling it a job was defending a misogynistic industry.

OK fair enough. But I disagree in the first instance that the industry as a whole is misogynistic. Sexist, absolutely. But facially those are two different concepts, and a conversation that they are in fact one and the same, or two sides of the same coin, is maybe a productive one, but would lead us far off-topic for this forum. Alternatively if we were to concede that the industry is misogynist, I don't agree that a person who is defending certain aspects of the industry we know them is necessarily defending the concomitant misogyny. Everything has bad consequences. You may have to own those consequences, but that doesn't mean you have to like them or support them. The employer-employee relationship is inherently unbalanced and dehumanizing. I don't like being told what to do, but I like getting paid. As such, I would defend my rights to enter into an employment contract even though I don't like the dehumanizing aspects of it.

This is something that I find a bit bizarre about (as it is referred to in the scholarly literature) The "BTK (Bakajo-Totally-Kita) position". It plays havoc with concept of capacity. On the one hand, you are saying that the girls are capable of making an informed decision to be sexually active. On the other hand, you are saying that the girls are incapable of making an informed decision to not be sexually active.

They're far too young to understand what exactly they're swearing off when they sign contracts at such a young age, and then by the time they have advanced through puberty and all the hormones have stopped wreaking havoc, they've been disciplined by the industry through years of training, education, and every other way they are so completely immersed into the industry to view sex in a slut-shaming light. I'm not saying they do, in the end, view it that way, but it inevitably shapes the psyche over such extended periods of time--and especially with such deep immersion and intensity. That's how schools work to promote nationalism, hierarchy, etc.

OK, at what age is it appropriate to sign such a contract? You're saying Haruka's too young, how about Haruna? How about Yuuko?

And the thing that you all keep glossing over about these contracts is that they are not indentured servitude contracts. If the girls decide they want boyfriends, they are free to opt out at any time. Yuuka, Bunion, Megumi, hell, Asuka. They all left and went back to "civilian" life, no hard feelings.

-This contract that they supposedly sign? Fan conjecture.

Well, we know that they sign an employment contract. Because that's what happens when you work for a professional organization. We also know that they are forbidden to have boyfriends. This has been publicly admitted many times. So the main points, that there is a contract, and that they are forbidden to date, are not conjecture.

-How does abstaining from dating in their tweens suddenly becomes viewing sex in a slut shaming light? A lot of the people around me don't even date until after they finished high school, not because they were forbidden to but because they don't really consider dating as an obligatory life experience/rite of passage in high school as much as others think they are and as far as I know they don't have negative views on sex or relationships in general just because they never dated in their tweens. Personally I think people can have discipline enough to stay away from distractions when you're pursuing other things you consider a higher priority without warping their world view so much. Putting time restrictions in their schedules aside, athletes also stay away from binge eating fast foods, scholarship hounds doesn't have time for silly video games/cartoons, musicians/artists/performers and I'm sure many others types of people besides idols makes all kinds of little sacrifices along the way.

I agree with this, on the whole. Arguably though the issue isn't just the dating prohibition but that it seems to be applied asymmetrically. Boy band members don't face the same consequences.

However, I am not sure that Fujimoto was making some heroic stand as opposed to she got caught and she got kicked out.

I didn't say she took a heroic stand. I said she was a hero. Furthermore she didn't get kicked out, at least not according to rumor. Supposedly they wanted her to stay but she chose to resign. It wasn't even like she chose to resign rather than give up her boyfriend. It was more like she used the scandal as an excuse to leave Morning Musume (but not GAM). She practically bragged about the affair on the radio after the pics came out but before the decision had been made, so as to force the hand of managment.

If Fujimoto Miki was not 'above the law' then you will not be either.

Except for the fact that Fujimoto got exactly what she wanted. She got to stay with the guy she was messing with, stay with the girl she was messing with, and keep getting checks from Up Front. And the fact that the scandals have ceased doesn't mean that the dating has ceased. I can think of at least one case (Miyabi's) where there were inconclusive photos released but UF chose to ignore them rather than escalating the situation. Which is my point, that UF has decided, post Fujimoto, that it's better to sweep these incidents under the rug if possible than to shame the girls and ultimately bring shame upon the organization. Might just be a coincidence that right after they lost the battle to rein in their star performers (let's throw Yaguchi in there too) that suddenly every girl in H!P found a way to suppress their desires, but I'm saying that it doesn't seem like a coincidence to me. Are you the only person allowed to engage in baseless speculation around here?

[randompasserby]

Well, we know that they sign an employment contract. Because that's what happens when you work for a professional organization. We also know that they are forbidden to have boyfriends. This has been publicly admitted many times. So the main points, that there is a contract, and that they are forbidden to date, are not conjecture.

Ah sorry, maybe I didn't phrase that correctly.
Of course they signed an employement contract but in that paragraph you took the quote from I was referring to the particular clause in said contract that explicitly forbids them from engaging in any relationships while they're in the agency's employment as idols. Everyone seems convinced it's there while that might not be the case.
The main points you mentioned still stands definitely, but I was just making a point that it's not a clear cut cause-effect relationship i.e they can't date because it's in their contract.

[erilaz]

Which is my point, that UF has decided, post Fujimoto, that it's better to sweep these incidents under the rug if possible than to shame the girls and ultimately bring shame upon the organization.

Causing embarrassment, to one's seniors or one's organization, seems to be the supreme sin in Japan. I'm reading a book called Behind the Mask: On Sexual Demons, Sacred Mothers, Transvestites, Gangsters and Other Japanese Cultural Heroes by Ian Buruma, published in 1984 but still largely relevant. I think this bit is worth sharing:

The reaction to scandals, when they do become public (the many tabloids make sure that they do), is equally predictable. Obviously Japanese love reading juicy stories as much as anybody. But the punishments meted out to offending talentos are curious. One female talento, after being questioned — not even arrested — about smoking pot with friends in a hotel-room, found all her contracts cancelled, including a lucrative tampon commercial she starred in. This would have been quite conceivable in Hollywood in the 1940s: Robert Mitchum, too, was arrested for smoking pot. But the following scene has an unmistakably Japanese flavour: the talento was made to go through a humiliating public apology on television, something like those self-criticism sessions in China during the Cultural Revolution, telling us how truly sorry she was, and how frightful the effects of pot smoking are. Only after this tearful demonstration of sincerity and good intentions did the wrath of the public-spirited media abate and she was let back into the tampon advertisements and the sing-along shows.

Sagara Naomi, another female singer, was not so lucky. One ill-fated day her lesbian lover told all in a television talk show. Why she did it nobody knows, but as a result Sagara was barred from appearing on television as long as the incident remained in the admittedly fickle public memory. Sagara's problem was not, I think, due to any innate wickedness of lesbian love. Homosexuality as such was never a sin in Japan. The problem was that she did not keep her friend under control. She let down the façade of propriety, she caused embarrassment, she rocked the social boat, and of course, she happened to be single. Nobody seems to care much about what people do in private, as long as they conform in public. After all, it is perfectly acceptable for a Japanese prime minister to keep several mistresses, as long as he is not a bachelor, in which case he would never have become prime minister in the first place.

[resop2]

If Fujimoto Miki was not 'above the law' then you will not be either.

Except for the fact that Fujimoto got exactly what she wanted. She got to stay with the guy she was messing with, stay with the girl she was messing with, and keep getting checks from Up Front. And the fact that the scandals have ceased doesn't mean that the dating has ceased. I can think of at least one case (Miyabi's) where there were inconclusive photos released but UF chose to ignore them rather than escalating the situation. Which is my point, that UF has decided, post Fujimoto, that it's better to sweep these incidents under the rug if possible than to shame the girls and ultimately bring shame upon the organization. Might just be a coincidence that right after they lost the battle to rein in their star performers (let's throw Yaguchi in there too) that suddenly every girl in H!P found a way to suppress their desires, but I'm saying that it doesn't seem like a coincidence to me. Are you the only person allowed to engage in baseless speculation around here?

Everyone is allowed to engage in baseless speculation. I wasn't in the fandom around this time so my knowledge won't be as good as those who were so I will admit my baseless speculation might not even be a good as other people's baseless speculation.

However, besides the Miyabi non-scandal, have their been any other "scandals" that have been swept under the rug? My thought is that both of our positions are not mutually exclusive. Maybe H!P does have a policy more protective of their talents now (first strike is a warning/double secret probation), and they haven't had to use it much because the girls toe the line because the second strike would be sanctions .

[DSQueenie]

Well, we know that they sign an employment contract. Because that's what happens when you work for a professional organization. We also know that they are forbidden to have boyfriends. This has been publicly admitted many times. So the main points, that there is a contract, and that they are forbidden to date, are not conjecture.

Ah sorry, maybe I didn't phrase that correctly.
Of course they signed an employement contract but in that paragraph you took the quote from I was referring to the particular clause in said contract that explicitly forbids them from engaging in any relationships while they're in the agency's employment as idols. Everyone seems convinced it's there while that might not be the case.
The main points you mentioned still stands definitely, but I was just making a point that it's not a clear cut cause-effect relationship i.e they can't date because it's in their contract.

If no dating isn't in their contract then UF* wouldn't be able to fire them if they get caught dating unless they have contacts they mean they can fire them for anything or bad publicity. Then again people get dropped from their agency all the time so maybe you're right.

[Zunu]

It's true, not having seen the contract that all we can do is speculate unless the girls have divulged specifics. But as I mentioned upthread it's common for entertainers to have morals clauses in their contracts which state that they can be released for anything that brings shame to their employer. Here are the termination agreements in a contract between a large US entertainment company and one of their employees:

(d)Cause. Employee is terminated for Cause. For purposes of
this Agreement, "Cause" is defined as (i) the willful and continued
failure by Employee to perform substantially his duties with the
Company (other than any such failure resulting from his incapacity
due to physical or mental illness), or (ii) the willful engaging by
Employee in misconduct which is materially and demonstrably
injurious to the Company. For purposes of this Agreement, no act,
or failure to act, on the part of Employee shall be considered
"willful" unless such act was committed, or such failure to act
occurred, in bad faith and without reasonable belief that Employee's
act or failure to act was in the best interests of the Company.

(e)Without Cause. The employment of Employee by the Company
under this Agreement may be terminated without Cause with severance
at any time by the Company's Chief Executive Officer with the
approval of the Company's Board of Directors in its sole discretion.

As you can see, in this case the employee misconduct clause in section (d) is quite generic. (see dark red highlight.) Basically, anything the employee does which is "willfully...materially and demonstrably injurious" to the company can result in termination. This is the USA so dating wouldn't be an issue. But say it's something comparably shameful, like the employee gets arrested for buying meth. In this case the company might reasonably claim that the employee missed some scheduled jobs during the time she was held in jail, which caused the company material (financial) injury. Or less reasonably, but still plausibly, that in having to issue public statements to the media by way of apology, the company was suffered an injury to its reputation. BUT even if no injury to the company can be established, the company still has section (d), the "Without Cause" termination clause. (see indigo highlight.) That means that the company can release the employee for NO REASON WHATSOEVER, however, in that case, it just has to pay whatever the agreed "severance" rate is.

So it's quite possible that rpb is right, there's nothing specific saying "no dating" in the contract. There doesn't have to be. You still know that if you get caught dating, depending on the situation, Up-Front will terminate you, with or without "cause."

Also, in Japan, one-year renewable employment contracts are somewhat common. Meaning, you work for a year. As the end of the year approaches, the employee notifies you whether you will stay on or not. If not, goodbye. If yes, you get one more year. In that case, if a girl isn't measuring up to standards, they would just let her yearly contract expire. I'm going to guess that this does not come into play with respect to the girls in H!P, because otherwise some wota would've already noticed the coincidence of girls being terminated near their yearly start date.

If anybody has any interest in Japanese labor law, there's an interesting handbook here. (pdf file)

[eki134]

Except for the fact that Fujimoto got exactly what she wanted. She got to stay with the guy she was messing with, stay with the girl she was messing with, and keep getting checks from Up Front. And the fact that the scandals have ceased doesn't mean that the dating has ceased. I can think of at least one case (Miyabi's) where there were inconclusive photos released but UF chose to ignore them rather than escalating the situation. Which is my point, that UF has decided, post Fujimoto, that it's better to sweep these incidents under the rug if possible than to shame the girls and ultimately bring shame upon the organization. Might just be a coincidence that right after they lost the battle to rein in their star performers (let's throw Yaguchi in there too) that suddenly every girl in H!P found a way to suppress their desires, but I'm saying that it doesn't seem like a coincidence to me. Are you the only person allowed to engage in baseless speculation around here?

its not miya. its a girl who looks like Miya

cmiiw

[Zunu]

Oh Saki Fukuda, eh? Makes sense, I guess she does kinda look like Miyabi from certain angles. Here she is doing a press conference for a play she was in with Manoeri.