The Morality of Idolatry

[AyuHikaru]

There's a whole thread for this now? Sweet. Now I have a reason to write out something about being a feminist and coming to terms with being an idol fan

[Bakajo Nono]

^Yay! Do it plz.

And for the record, you know I love you guys. I'm glad we're having this discussion though, because it's something I'm struggling with and continue to as a fan. Damn music keeps bringing me back though.

^ Start here…

viewtopic.php?p=87835#p87835

…and keep reading.

Why is it all about sex? And if it is all about sex, then how can there be so many child, female, and gay fans? Why are you a fan? Could the image of chaste innocence be appealing for reasons other than sex? Could it simply be that it's entertaining to watch cute girls do cute things? If yes, then why is it okay for you but not for other fans who are the same age, gender, and orientation as you?

Our threads got kind of weird so is this what you're referring to?

Because what immediately comes to mind is photobooks, for me. Those are very obviously sexualized products (in some instances). Not just cute girls doing cute things. Does a child who goes into the idol industry appreciating all the non-sexual things you mention really have a choice when she starts to do photobooks or does she have to just do it all because it's part of the job?

And even if it's not about sex, then. About romantic love. A girl singing about romantic love, but not being able to engage in it. Why is that an idol at all? It oozes of hypocrisy if anything.

And I agree with Zunu and whoever else mentioned the gray area about girls being too young to really rationally be in a position to sign a contract. And as I mentioned before, I don't really know if I buy the fact that there's a contract or that this is an industry as something that legitimates it anyway.

[Starra]

Personally, as much as I'd like idols to be allowed to openly date and whatnot, I really don't think it's going to happen with this generation of idols. Unless things drastically change in Japan. Which they probabl won't.

I still maintain that the girls should follow their contracts, even if the rules are bullshit.

[TotallyUncool]

The focus on a lack of romance as being tantamount to abuse seems to me a rather US/Western-centric critique.

Oh, come off it! Nobody died and made you shogun! Are you claiming to speak for Japan? No colonialist mentality there!
When I want someone to explain Japan to me, I ask my Japanese friends, and I listen to them. When anyone else tries to do the explaining, I smile politely, and let most of it go in one ear and out the other, and then I watch most of that run down the storm drain and out to the waste treatment plant, which is generally where it belongs. So let's not clog up the storm drain system.

Seriously, I said I don't like some of the things I see in the Japanese idol industry, and if I don't like 'em, I don't like 'em. That's pretty simple. I know myself well enough to know that I'm not dragging Plato, Moses, Chrétien de Troyes, John Calvin, Adam Smith, Cecil Rhodes, Marx, Freud, and Billy Graham around with me whenever I look at other cultures or eras of history, or even at other individuals -- and I'm not foolish enough to feel guilty or worry about the possibility that I am. My own BS is much better -- so I don't need to borrow anybody else's.



Edit: This thread is stickied now???

Spoiler: show

I'm not even going to ask with what.

[DSQueenie]

^^

I think it depends. Miichan's head shaving, no matter what your stance on it was guys, got a lot of news coverage and surprisingly even in the Japanese coverage most people thought it was ridiculous. But I think we would have to a scandal like that plus something even more visual and shocking to really make people change and it would need to come from with in Japan in order to do it. If there is one thing I know about Japan they really don't care what other countries think of them.

[Celedam]

Seriously, I said I don't like some of the things I see in the Japanese idol industry, and if I don't like 'em, I don't like 'em. That's pretty simple.

If you can't explain why better than "it's unfair" or "just 'cuz," then your opinion is as worthless as you think ours is.

And that goes for everyone else here.

Here it is, folks… (And I'm going to do this point by point to make it even clearer. Feel free to refer back to this in the future, because I'm never coming into this thread again. Unlike many of you, I've actually thought this through and have reached a rational, principled position that doesn't need to be debated any further.)

---begin here---

Idols exist to sell you a product, and that product is a little bit of relief from your real-world problems. CDs, DVDs, concert tickets, and merchandise are just the tokens by which they sell you that product.

It's built right into the word itself: an idol is an object of worship or adoration. It satisfies an emotional need in us, more than for mere entertainment. See also the literal meaning of 「可愛」.

It's never been about the music, et.al. If it was, then they would be singers or actresses or models, not idols, and they would succeed or fail on their actual talents.

Idols may become singers or actresses or models, as they grow older and develop whatever talents they have, but it's usually clear when that happens. We call it "graduation".

That's why we the consumers tolerate often mediocre music from idols, and it's also why seemingly plain, talentless girls can still become successful idols. Just remember the product they're actually selling you.

If idols have real-world problems of their own, then they can no longer effectively sell you that product. And if they have problems that indicate some moral failing, then they jeopardize the entire brand.

Therefore, idols are employed on the agreement — either implicit, as part of industry convention, or explicit, as written into their contracts — that they will keep themselves free of real-world problems.

That means no dating, no smoking, no drinking (at least until it's legal, and even then only casually), love your family, respect your seniors, stay in school, follow the rules, be in good health, and so on.

Idols still have problems, of course. They're only human. But the problems they have are the cute, inconsequential problems of youth like dealing with acne or studying for a test.

Sex is the ultimate real-world problem because it and its possible consequences (e.g., pregnancy, disease) are the ultimate indication that a girl has become a woman. Virginity matters, whether you like it or not.

Being sexy is NOT the same as being sexual. There are no consequences to wearing a skimpy costume and flirting with the camera. At the end of the day, they can take off the costume and put away the camera.

We object when younger idols appear sexy because someone else is making them appear sexy and the idols themselves don't understand what they're doing. Older idols do understand, so we don't object.

The entire idol industry works only if we all accept these normally unspoken understandings: what the actual product is, what the idol must do to sell the product, what's sexy and when, and so on.

If any of these understandings are violated, by irresponsible girls or unscrupulous managers or overzealous fans, then the industry stops working. The spell is broken and we all lose.

In the end, however, being an idol is a job like any other. It may seem like more, because the work involves almost daily public attention and at least the illusion of an emotional bond, but it's really not.

And since it's only a job, when a girl leaves that job, the public attention and emotional bond should stop. We have no more right to stalk (yes, that's what it is) a former idol than we do any other girl on the street.

---end here---

[resop2]

I'm snickering thinking what the Amish might think of the title of the thread (since they think that TV watching is worshiping graven images).

[AyuHikaru]

There are a lot of feminist arguments for why the rules of idolatry is problematic and DAMAGING to the women involved. This isn't just an idol problem either, it's movies and comic books, and all kinds of things. Idols are concentrated misogyny that deeply rooted in the Men are superior to Women problem in Japan. It's all about control, it is never about trying "to keep them out of trouble" the rules are there because Men believe that Woman can't keep themselves out of trouble and so Men need to do it for us.

It's a whole thing.

I'll type more about it when I'm sure no one is going to come at me with MRA stuff.

Seeing idols from a feminist point of view is very negative, but it does have a lot of positives too (which is why I remain a fan of H!P, though I don't follow idols as a whole because of it)

[Starra]

I thought the rules are there because wota are more likely to support a girl if they're *~*pure*~* (as in not dating).

As for me personally, I love all idols. Idols are great. I don't see why some H!P fans only support H!P and not other idols groups too because it seems kind of close-minded (not you personally AH, I mean people who do that in general). There are just so many idols out there that I find it hard to believe there aren't any non-H!P idols to like. For example, I have a page on my Tumblr of oshis from various idol groups. By various, I mean 80+. Not counting H!P and *48, that's easily 200 girls to choose from. And if people don't see the appeal of any of them, I'd be really surprised. And also, the ones with the super young members tend to not have many fans anyway, so I don't see why people are worried about wota doing creepy things. Because most wota aren't even like that.

Anyway, I'm getting off topic. As I said, AH, I'm not trying to attack you. You jus mentioned something that I'd been meaning to rant about for a whole .

[Zunu]

I agree with most of that, but not entirely with the following.

In the end, however, being an idol is a job like any other. It may seem like more, because the work involves almost daily public attention and at least the illusion of an emotional bond, but it's really not.

And since it's only a job, when a girl leaves that job, the public attention and emotional bond should stop. We have no more right to stalk (yes, that's what it is) a former idol than we do any other girl on the street.

Being an idol is a job, but NOT just like any other. As you've pointed out, it relies on an emotional bond with the fan in order to work. No fan, no idol. There's a reciprocity there. None of us came up to young Maeda-chan in the street and asked to be her fans. She voluntarily presented herself as an idol and cultivated a following. She asked people to invest in her emotionally. And that's where the trouble lies. "I want you to support me through thick and thin, buy my music and come to my concerts because you love me, don't ever give up on me." And at the height of her career, "oh, never mind, forget about me, carry on." It feels to some like a personal betrayal.

The J-idol industry has a keen awareness of the lopsidedness of this arrangement. Hence the frequent lyrical emphasis on "kataomoi," the unrequited love, as if to say to the fans, we commiserate with your unrequited feelings, in fact, as teenaged girls we go through the same. And the ritualized graduations are a way to tell the fans, with months of advance notice, now the time approaches in which you can let go of your love and adoration. Be ready for it.

I once read that Japan, to an extent unparalleled in the West, is a place that has a ritual for everything. With almost every human interation, there is a prescribed method of getting through it without uncertainty. You know exactly how far to bow to a superior, exactly what to say at a funeral, exactly how to engage in small talk if required. Obviously this is a vast oversimplification but there's some kernel of truth to it. The graduation event is part of the standard ritual for letting go of one's oshi. But when a girl like Maeda graduates on short notice, or in some cases, without a proper "graduation" at all, there is, I imagine a feeling among some fans that she didn't give them the proper grieving period and so they remain frustrated.

It's like you come home and there's a note left by your long term girlfriend, "It was fun but I've decided to move on. Have a nice life, don't look for me," and all her stuff is cleaned out. No explanation, no chance for you to find out what went wrong. Later you hear that she's working a few blocks away from your parents. Do you look for her to confront her? HOPEFULLY NOT YOU FREAKING STALKER. But the urge is there.

All right, it's not really like that at all. Because that's your real ex-girlfriend, and some idol is just your imaginary dream girl. But for some, particularly those without real ex-girlfriends to go by, the distinction is difficult.

In some ways, I'm reminded of the situation of the writer G.R.R. Martin, of A Song of Ice and Fire (Game of Thrones) fame. He published the first three volumes of his epic series fairly quickly. But then there was a five year gap between the 3rd and 4th volumes. During that period, some of his fans got extremely and vocally frustrated with the delay, noting that he had "promised" that the wait would not be long. They felt he was betraying them by getting involved in a lot of side projects. OK, fine, he said, and made them wait another SIX years between the 4th and 5th volumes. And it must be mentioned that the 4th and 5th volumes are in a sense one book, so really there was an ELEVEN year gap between certain events being resolved. The fans who were angriest argued that Martin OWED it to them to work diligently on his novels, since he had enticed them in with the promise of an epic saga, of a full story to be told. They devoted their money and time to it and he was reneging on his end by waiting so long. But his response was, fuck off. You got the novels you paid for. That's all I owe you. I'm not a slave to my word processor, and if you get more, fine, but if not, well, that's life. You knew the risks when you bought into it.

Ultimately of course, he's right. Artists and celebrities don't owe us any more than they feel comfortable giving. As fans, we know that one day our idols may return to "civilian" life. And that they deserve a peaceful retirement if that is what they choose. But the fearsome engine of fame, the "Fame Monster," doesn't stop its attack on demand. And and idols, they too should know this, or be apprised of it, when they first enter the arena. Useless metaphor aside, it's been ruled that in the US one has NO legal expectation of privacy while out and about in public, whether a celebrity or not. Japan I think is much more restrictive in this regard, but I wouldn't necessarily agree that snapping a couple of photos of someone who used to be famous equals stalking. I think the circumstances, the severity, the intent, all come into play. In the spirit of striving to be better, to paraphrase Celedam, shashin wo totte mo ii desu ka might be a good starting point.